Letter of protest from FFF and hundreds of other players to KANO

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by Grand Master Fielding, Dec 10, 2014.

  1. Lawskar

    Lawskar Member

    Ummm not sure what all the fuss is about really... Just finding it amusing when folks having a bleat: Use their default quote of 'it's a combat game' as if anything can't be improved on VC..

    I like so many others don't necessarily battle a great deal and am therefore receptive to new ideas.. VC is so much more than a combat game and wish others would realize this..

    The new BA construct was great fun lasting more than its usual manic hour, and in it's original format only about 10 guys could say it was competitive.. For the rest of us it was build up your defence, try and get a few kills, get caught by a big fish then def enable for a few hours.. Why the 'so called majority' find that appealing has left me in total bewilderment...

    You know the graveyard is full of Vikings who got bored with the lack of depth to the game.. Kano offer something a little different and suddenly some clandestine group of 229 users think the game has gone to the dogs..

    Guess what guys VC is also a levelling game. So why is it so bad to level in a different way.. Seriously!!

    Whilst I concede that other adventure sets should open up, I reckon both the gang raid bosses and the new look BA system was a positive move by the team..

    I think the proof will be in how much users were prepared to spend on their investment and at the end of the day like all games profit is the driving force.. The mechanism for moving the game forward..
    Zoonie likes this.
  2. ben

    ben Active Member

    but changing ba for greed is wrong and that is what has happen ...
    Lucifer likes this.
  3. Gunny from PC

    Gunny from PC Member

    I agree with, Kel where he said, "I have appreciated the relationship I have with Kano. I don't appreciate some of the recent changes." and clearly many of us don't appreciate some of the recent changes.

    I wish more effort would be focused on the people who use programs to mask their, IP addresses in order to play multiple accounts, rather than the focus being on fixing things that aren't broken. And, what is particularly insulting is that, Kano is doing it all under the guise to help lower levels when in fact I feel it is just a ploy to make more money. I understand you are a business, but the line has to be drawn somewhere, therefore I am in full support of the, OP and the hundreds of players who have signed this petition.

    Thank you, Grand Master Fielding for taking the time to bring this serious matter to the forefront.
    Kel the Merciful King likes this.
  4. Lawskar

    Lawskar Member

    Depends what you mean by greed..It is up to the individual whether they purchase or not.. Personally if the game doesn't shift it gets stale and users leave.. 2/3 years ago there were 15k worth of Vikings attacking the world boss.. Today we're lucky to get half that.. You have to look at the bigger picture... and that is the lack of depth to the previous set up.. Profit is the motivating force of course and what drives change..
    The term 'greed' can be applied to almost any product you buy off a shelf at a local shop and go.. Every business going in private hands looks to maximise it's investment return..
    Kano for their part are only doing what the rest of the world do..
    For my part, I haven't purchased any fps for quite a while other than just now.. Why.. because the game was getting boring and at my pace of levelling each fp attained per level was enough to tide me over for what limited opportunities there were in game..
    Now Kano have said here you go here is another product and I say that's all right with me i'll buy some fps..
    The net result is that if the game doesn't evolve all you will end up with are 50 grumpy players at the top end and everyone else losing interest..
    Aapje and Kirsten like this.
  5. ben

    ben Active Member

    no wonder you missed the concept this is no store ...
  6. Lawskar

    Lawskar Member

    Not sure who missed what where my friend... You've not really made any relevant commentary so far but lets talk about the original BA...

    Ok so you liked it.. Why??? What was good about it???
    Lets see some of the time you miss the whole thing due to start times..
    When you do compete if you can call it that, you're going to be outclassed and when found then what scramble to the enable tab.. Wow so stimulating so predictable time after time
    Oh and guess what after about an hour of play you then need to wait ages for the next tournament.. Dead good!!
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2014
    Zoonie and Kirsten like this.
  7. Kirsten

    Kirsten Well-Known Member

    It is a gaming company in business to make games and money
  8. Aardvark

    Aardvark Orycteropus Afer

    Apologies to everyone in advance for the gargantuan post, however I wanted to address the all points made in the original post as thoroughly as possible.

    Hi @Grand Master Fielding,

    Aardvark here, I understand you were interested in hearing some additional perspectives. We have spoken before, back when I used to be the Support Lead for Kano’s combat games. I have since adopted the role of Content Coordinator, which involves a lot of different tasks but includes helping to plan the release of game content.

    I was sorry to hear you've been feeling frustrated with the messages you have received from us. However I can promise you the following:

    -No Kano team member has ever deliberately provided incorrect or misleading information. We are here to make games that people can enjoy long-term, and which are fun and engaging enough that some of our players choose to support them financially and this means not trying to pull the wool over anyone's eyes.

    -Our Live-Ops staff - the people who talk to and assist players on a daily basis such as Mitch and Melissa - put a lot of effort into ensuring that the views of players are communicated to the rest the team. Support and Forum Messages, (including some of yours) are often shared directly with the programmers, artists, and project leads so they can be discussed and taken into account when planning next steps.

    -Kano is a small company with only 20 permanent staff members and an even smaller subset of that are dedicated specifically to developing and maintaining features like the Arena and Raid Bosses - about 8 people, including Mitch and Melissa who are a vital part because they are best able to bring the player perspective to the planning process.

    In short, if you are looking for honest people with decision-making authority who are working hard on player’s behalf for a better game, you already have them. I am simply here to help provide a fresh voice and hopefully ease some of the frustrations we are all experiencing. :)

    That being said, we do understand that many players are concerned and frustrated about the issues you have commented on and we are working towards solutions.

    As far as your comments about arrogant or disrespectful attitudes from staff are concerned, I haven’t personally noticed negative tones in messages and am certain that no team member has ever intended to be disrespectful; however, we will be reviewing our messages and processes to see how we can improve and better avoid miscommunication or offense in the future.

    In regards to your comments about the new Raid Boss feature:

    Our goal was to create a fun but challenging cooperative experience. We are aware that it is not perfect, however we've seen had a lot of interest in this feature and have seen some encouraging improvements with each new iteration and will continue working to make it something that is simple to access, fun for the bulk of our players, and healthy for long-term health of the games as a whole. As always, we appreciate you sharing your experiences with us. Our intention is to have an exciting and rewarding event that is available to players of all levels, but which is wholly optional and which do not cost players anything if they don’t wish to spend.

    Thank you also for your comments about the updates to the Arena, I was sorry to hear that you've been so frustrated with the changes.

    The Arena was originally designed to be an epic 3-day battle fest that huge numbers of players could enjoy and reap rewards from. Unfortunately, the originally design didn't work out the way we'd hoped - we've received many criticisms of the feature since it was introduced, and have seen players’ frustrations reflected in lower engagement around the event.

    Even accounting for level restrictions, the numbers of players who are interested enough to sign up for these events are significantly lower than those who engage with other game features. Among those, even fewer perform enough actions to be considered an active participant.

    Since our goals are always centered on making the game as fun as possible, for as many players as possible, it doesn't make sense for us to devote our limited resources towards maintaining an event so few people are interested in and which fell so far short of its original purpose.

    The recent updates, while far from perfect, are intended as steps towards resolving the concerns players have repeatedly brought to us:
    -Cheating - Concerns that the format could motivate players to seek out aides like autoclickers
    -Match Rigging - Concerns that players could collaborate to predetermine who would rank well.
    -Players who performed few actions being rewarded more than those who battled hard
    -Game imbalances arising when the same, small number of players repeatedly reap large rewards
    -Not being able to survive long enough to enjoy the feature
    -High level requirement - many interested players were not high enough in level either to sign up or to effectively perform any actions

    The design changes were not intended to make it easier for lower levels to win, we simply want them to be able to enjoy taking part.

    Again, we appreciate you bringing us your feedback about the changes. With these updates we have seen some small improvements: there are now more barriers for cheating and match rigging, and we have seen an increase in interest and player activity. HOWEVER! These gains have been smaller than we’d hoped and we are certainly aware that there have been bugs and unintended negative effects as well. We are committed to working on this issues and hope you and your friends will continue to help us out with feedback as we do so.

    Thank you for continuing to remind us of your requests for a new Viking Clan location. We are aware that many high-level players are interested in seeing more content like this and will be planning how we can best address this in the new year. There are unique challenges with designing this type of content at the very high levels, however tackling these will be a priority in 2015.

    Also, thank you for noticing the work we have been doing to identify and remove fake and alternative accounts. Unfortunately, the issue is not as simple as banning everyone who steps out of line, however we are continuing to step up efforts around this type of violation. We are happy to report a significant reduction in flagging for this type of activity -despite the steady increases made to the sensitivity of our flagging processes- which is encouraging. :)

    In closing, I speak for everyone here at Kano when I say we are sorry that you have been under the impression that we are focused on short-term profits rather than our players. We care deeply about our community and our games and are working hard to keep them enjoyable for years to come.


    aka Melanie Guille
    Content Coordinator
    The Kano/Apps Team

    Note: To ensure this response is received as soon as possible, duplicates have been posted in your Support ticket exchange and also sent to the contact email address you provided.
    Kirsten likes this.
  9. John Luna

    John Luna Member

    Wow, I rarely post in "this" forum but I must admit there are some really good points posted in this thread. I doubt much will come from it, but who knows. Strength comes in numbers, if "we" the players can organize and stick together I am sure a middle ground can be reached.
    Dunk Nielsen likes this.
  10. 'David Ramos

    'David Ramos Active Member

    I havent joined the new BA yet- on the fence-- only level 8000- the 1st BA I did 2500 attacks 2 o 3 kllls! then went def when getting hit hard! then no more chits! ended at 30! last BA did over 30,000 attacks 15 kills- ended at 80 ? Seems to me if ya dont have the refill ability to attack more than 200 k then not worth it! espesially when ya use 1000 stam getting 1 or 2 health per wi-- & no yes NO extra heath on kills! seems like FFF boycott is a legit aspect! atm less than 700 in BA!!
  11. Kel the Merciful King

    Kel the Merciful King Well-Known Member

    You are now Content Coordinator which I assume is close / approximate to "game designer". I would like to offer you a path and to do that I will go over what I think I see in this "game". A short history is called for however and please bear with me.

    1) The regular game consists of battling someone else - a person- to gain in the game. The gains in the game are usually measured by level. And the attacks v. a person are limited to 5000 wins per 22 hours. A social aspect exists.

    2) Overlayed on top of that is the boss battles - battling v. a thing, and for a certain time, after the regular game gets used up, this avenue is available. There is no limit but the reality is there is only so many bosses hittable out there per session. You can be extremely resourceful and patient to find many more than is "published" in the social feeds, if that is your desire. Element of skill here exists. You can also find people who want to help you or to help, etc. The social aspect exists.

    3) Then game "GPS Awards" a team game, that the guild with every member who finishes a season full of usually daily activity, with a first past the post reward for the win, existed. This was social but found quite contentious within guild as the reward was very light and the demands at times very strong to settle ties. The weakest link usually cost the "win" and suffered as a result. The social aspect exists.

    4) Then came "War Mode" a fast version of VC, that can create lots of action and competition between teams. It eliminated range as an issue in hitting rivals as well created plenty of bounty activity where there was a slipping into infrequent to rare activity. Most players seem to like bounty action so much so "God Bounties" were created in case the warring guilds were not bountying each other. The social aspect exists. Rewards for keeping the game alive: 1/2 level and a virtual trophy. 1/3 of level an virtual trophy 1/4 of a level and a virtual trophy. Participation ... some ... but less and less and of course a virtual trophy.

    5) Now comes along the latest BA variants. 300K attacks for the top 3, 200K attacks for the top 3 in the latest in FB VC. The winner spent the most. Was it social? Smirk. No team play. Winner was dead in all arena's monitored as they were likely saved by every "loser", and demolished due to the rules. Did it matter? They did not live and yet they won? Crazy. Actually double crazy.

    6) Interspersed with the latest BA variants, we have the arrival of the Raid Bosses, which I kind of shake my head at the social interaction which is parallel to the boss interaction of the regular game but for many in my observation, it was just a race to get in and do no healing but just get minimum damage in the hope of a reward. Vampiring energy and alt creation to destroy and damage enemy bosses was there enuf to say: this ain't fun. Yes this can be fixed but what will be left? 400M bosses to kill or do they get stronger and sap more life out of 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 above.

    Yes there are options. You can fix the regular game. You can fix the boss game. You can fix the GPS game. You can fix the War Mode game. You can fix the BA game. You can fix the Raid game. But in all this you replied the option exists to not spend a dime, and that this is a choice, you need to give your head a shake, pardon the expression. This is largely a skill based competition, with money players v. non or small money players. In all, everyone is trying to have a good time (albeit at the expense of everyone else at times ... but it all is 2 way ... so it works!).

    The only way this game will be viable is if there are skill based opportunities to get those tokens (FPs) to compete in all the games (6) overlayed to the same battlefield.

    So I suggest strongly that you should consider enhancement to all these "games" to balance out what will be a major imbalance otherwise caused by 5) and 6) otherwise.

    1) Level, you get 2FPs at x level. Get the level achievements fixed i.e. stretch out the game as due to 5) and 6) expect that "my" level will be beat in no time, and you will need a 30,000 level done (likely not by me either). Forget the linearity of the level achieves (Mi7ch was reviewing a long time ago and there were 00's of achievos ... where?). Soon if you are successful you will need 1000 increments from 30,000 ... and am not joking. Toss the 500 increments. But note, you need at "my" level over 800,000 XP (think about that). There are players that will level up there and they will want this done. If its done in advance, they have something to look forward to.
    2) Boss fights, tweak them, more drops. The drops and crafting relative to Raid Common drops suck. More drops, and up the random drop ratio of the 2 attack minimum.
    3) GPS, give FP's for placings. See next.
    4) War mode, give FP's for placings and take it down the line farther. 30, 25, 20, 15, 10, 5. 35, 30,25,15,10, 5 minimum.
    5) BA ... if you are going to keep something that requires 200K hits to win 75 FPs, 100FP's min reward. Note stamina is capped at 7500 (that was a kick in the teeth btw and should be published v. found out!), so to hit 200+ times absent levels is 300FP's. With levels, 200 FP's, to win, with paid for revives to continue ... 500-600FPs ...
    6) Raids ... ugh. No solution. But if you want to keep it, my 02 cents, you best lubricate the game with FP's to keep the non-spenders close to the spenders, or there will be no non-spenders. They are seeing the writing on the wall now as to what they have to do to compete (5 and 6 is not looking to good in terms of chances and reward). It is not good the feedback I have i.e. you will lose a lot of players who provide a lot of life to these games otherwise.

    None of the above I believe is "hard" to do. The tweaks to 5) and 6) you are doing no matter as 6) is in your monthly plans. The keeping of non-paying customers who are competitors at heart is however not in your plans if you keep things all over as they are. With some smart economics applied to the games rewards, and encouraging skilled, social play, even those non-paying customers might feel "yeah, I can fork over x ... this is cool. I am getting value for my entertainment."

    The response you provided otherwise, provides no future to this game as I see it. I believe your sincerity however I don't believe you see the whole picture of the players I see and have experienced this game with, for years. You see the optional spending in a situation where those FP's will be a lifeblood to compete and to stay competitive. There will be no long term option to be or stay competitive absent the purchase of them. The regular game 1) and 2) is dwarfed by 5) and 6). Your choice is to re-balance the entire set of games in my opinion or you will lose many players interest, guaranteed.

    Founder, FFF Freedom Fun Forever in VC (and other Kano games)
    Aapje, Deblovscats1, Lucifer and 2 others like this.
  12. Das liebe Beil

    Das liebe Beil Well-Known Member

    Craig, chill.

    It's not just Kel that is upset with changes like the Raid Bosses. I personally had a rival join my Raid boss in the first iteration and killing it off when someone tried to beat it down. Why? Because of spite. Because he won't amount to anything more than a gnat in this game any longer.

    Many of the Old Guard and higher levels from MySpace/KP2 are in FFF, even people who had a big falling out with Kel. Still, they stayed in FFF.

    In fact, the concerns about these changes have seen people agreeing with each other in a way I'd never thought I'd see. Ben and Atheistic agreeing with Fielding? I always thought first the sun would rise in the west and Pigs fly into the sunset in the east. The changes concern people because they look awfully like a money-grabbing scheme. Introduce a shiny feature where the full use means you have to spend FPs.

    Also, Raid bosses are, from what I can gather, intended to be a group effort. Unfortunately most people will at best give a token effort and then wait for someone else to pick up the slack for them.

    Sure, you can level pretty well with them, I've calculated what it would cost you approximately to gain 5000 levels starting from 15000 if you have 3k Energy and 7500 stam. The only thing you might lack would be a supply of Raid bosses, but there are ways around that, too.

    Fact is, people are concerned that Kano introduced these features as moneygrabbers. They're similar enough to other money grabbing features on other games to throw up warning flags. Still, from what I heard, not as bad as Zynga levels of money grabbing and by far not even close to Dungeon Keeper Mobile.

    The concern that many people share is that Kano fell prey to the lure of micro-transactions, the Raid bosses, when not beaten down in a team effort, are a feature where you'll either want to have a load of FPs saved up or have your CC ready to get those FPs, otherwise chances are you won't see a Raid boss killed.
  13. Deblovscats1

    Deblovscats1 Active Member

    Excuse me Ladies & Gentlemen.....This thread is about THE VIKING CLAN GAME!!!! Any quarrels should be taken to their own thread!!! Craig & Kel do not get along.......so FINE, ENOUGH SAID!!! THE GAME is what is important here!!! Please keep the focus on THAT!!!
  14. kevinmalo

    kevinmalo Active Member

    Yes.. Kano do you want to see all your non-spender players go? because it looks like you are making changes only to benefit in every way those that can. Do you want a game where everyone is able to spend money? Soon.. if you know what are you doing.
  15. Kirsten

    Kirsten Well-Known Member

    Well I am a spender but I cannot keep up anymore, my spending days are pretty much over,and not because of any protest, but between 4 games ,3 of which I play seriously, I have to stop, and just play more frugal, have spent way more than I ever thought I would over the years. And I cannot keep up with some who seem to have a bottomless ability lol so good luck to those that can keep up the pace.
    Grand Master Fielding likes this.
  16. Grand Master Fielding

    Grand Master Fielding Active Member

    Just a note here - I have responded to Melanie via email and via ticket. I've always found Melanie to be an honest broker - however it must be said I have serious issues with her post here. But that has been responded to via email. For now that email will be kept private. At least for now.
    Kel the Merciful King likes this.
  17. Kel the Merciful King

    Kel the Merciful King Well-Known Member

    That is fair comment Kirsten.

    If the average player cannot possibly keep up with the few who are clobbering this content, what does it say to the average player? How does it preserve the competition in the core game? How does it preserve their rank? What are their chances and how do they perceive their chances in this game, now?

    The apparent choice they have is pay or perish. This was not the game concept for **years** of prior play. Smart skilled play got them where they are. Care to address that?

    While it can tritely be asserted that 'high" levels are challenged by this but as one, I can definitely say I am not. I benefit as much as any one else. For x FP's I can keep my position relatively and absolutely, if I so choose, even with the undocumented handicaps to high level attributes, that do destroy character builds (no one cared about that change and this company's perceived cash grabbing ways there).

    But my position in the game is not my concern. Its the guys and gals I have known through the years, who are saying done done done done done done done done done done and done and who will likely say the same in the future and near future, as well as the attractiveness of this pay to play concept to new players. Its *my* perception of where this game is going, and if you read my Farmville 3 post, its gone there further and more (200,000 and 300,000 attacks in a feature done by many v. a daily limit of 5000 attacks, showed me they "got it" :) NOT!) Next up will be the rehashing of the 5000 attack limit and the former game designers concept of being against leveling ...

    When a game changes its principal play, in a month or two, that took 5 years to build, I believe this is entirely justified to say "STOP LOOK and LISTEN". If they don't want to listen, fine. We all have choices to make.

    Play a game that has a dead spot at Level 17,000 and a dead spot at Level 12500, with no build outs in sight, with massive leveling features that have no leveling rewards, that were once marks of achievement that came with a rebate v. now just marks of marks. Or not.

    I am not a mark. I feel like one atm. And trust me, the last thing I want is my friends taken too. My enemies can pay to play to catch me and pass me :) Lovely feeling I will have, unnoticed, of them being taken too :)
  18. Grand Master Fielding

    Grand Master Fielding Active Member

    Kel you're 100% spot on about the lack of achievements once passing level 17000. That should be taken care of, and it's a rather easy fix. Rewards should go up to at least level 30000?
    Deblovscats1 likes this.
  19. Craig Day

    Craig Day Well-Known Member

    I only posted that to caution all not to just be followers. Please keep in mind that certain people despite their protests to the contrary have only their own interests at heart and misrepresent and mislead in order to forward their own agenda. You will note that I expressed certain disagreement with a poster. I will point out that I did not start the personal attacks and perhaps I should not have responded to them. But, I get so tired of the fact that its all my fault. It has been my position that its no ones business how much money anyone spends on the game. That opportunity is available to all. Maybe I should be flattered as I am the center of their focus but it does get old. Especially, since they do the exact same things.

    I , for one, am encouraged by the response from Kano they seem generally concerned. However, FFF does not speak for all of VC. As far as I am concerned start your boycott please. It will fail as did the last one when A boycott of FB VC was called and the Leader snuck off to play on Server 2. Please take the time to form your own opinion. Do not follow people that do not have anyones interest at heart but their own.
  20. Kel the Merciful King

    Kel the Merciful King Well-Known Member

    If I was in charge, they would be at 30,000 to give something to look forward at, to all players, including the Farmville 3 types. This is something that "Wonder Bread" knew ('you need to something to go for, we understand' with an implied 'doing something' to me directly, years ago). They should also be scaled as Mi7ch acknowledged and discussed scaling them, with retro-activity. Getting to level 7500 and getting to level 17,000 is an entirely different experience requirement yet they are rewarded the same.

    As you likely know, who ever is next to those level achievements, whether you are leading or coming to them, is a stronger build than the prior character to arrive there due to there being more adventure and boss drops to be taken advantage, hence the skill points from the higher levels achievements are necessary to keep the game play relevant to level (don't get me started on chasing someone and the edge to the chaser in the game play as well, magnified by this issue).

    Many apparently like this "breakdown" in the game versus "other content" arguments. Those arguments tho are very short sighted and in my world, have been basic in nature. It should not be a big deal to add to level achievements versus other content. The levels should be a simple maintenance issue as the code requires slight nudges (don't bs me on coding, tyvm).

    Greed? I don't know what it is at play. 21 achievements missing at 20 FP's each unscaled (420 FP's), and 25 SP's per ... "unscaled" and over 800,000 XP to level ... does it require great planning time and great efforts to do maintenance? They added two spots to my IC ... that was a nudge to the code ... Will people complain that that maintenance was done in lieu of content ...

    Deblovscats1 likes this.

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